Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:14 pm
by version sound
The first that comes to mind for me is the Teen Idles Anniversary EP, and I say that as a huge Teen Idles apologist. The unreleased songs are pretty lackluster, and the others were done better elsewhere.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:59 pm
by lewdd
probably several of the versions of LAMF
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:01 pm
by xxxMidgexxx
version sound wrote:The first that comes to mind for me is the Teen Idles Anniversary EP, and I say that as a huge Teen Idles apologist. The unreleased songs are pretty lackluster, and the others were done better elsewhere.
Why do you hate rock and roll?
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:02 pm
by xxxMidgexxx
Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:06 pm
by JGJR
lewdd wrote:probably several of the versions of LAMF
I'm really looking forward to hearing the RSD version that's about to be released next month because supposedly they found the real tapes and whatnot, but the only version I know is the '94 one ("The Lost '77 Mixes) from Jungle and it sounds pretty good to me, but I don't have an original to compare it to. Such a killer album.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:10 pm
by JGJR
xxxMidgexxx wrote:Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
No way (or did you mean the Iggy mix; the Bowie mix was every released version from '73 until the Iggy mix first came out in '97) You should listen to the version on the box set. It's the best I've ever heard it and I had the cassette and have the 2xLp version with the Iggy mix (which is incidentally incredible on that set; the '97 CD is a great entry for this category, though, because it's horrendous IMO).
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:50 pm
by version sound
xxxMidgexxx wrote:Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
HOW GODDAMN DARE YOU! I just called the USPS and asked them to get that box of cassettes back.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:03 pm
by version sound
JGJR wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
No way (or did you mean the Iggy mix; the Bowie mix was every released version from '73 until the Iggy mix first came out in '97) You should listen to the version on the box set. It's the best I've ever heard it and I had the cassette and have the 2xLp version with the Iggy mix (which is incidentally incredible on that set; the '97 CD is a great entry for this category, though, because it's horrendous IMO).
Sorry, but the Iggy mix is garbage, and it has nothing to do with the digital distortion on the CD and everything to do with the heavy handedness and egocentricity of the mix. He just cranked up all the guitar and vocal tracks and left the bass and drums woefully underrepresented. You know how people have always complained that there wasn’t enough Iggy and James on the record? No? Goddamn right, because no one ever said that. Iggy’s mix did NOTHING to solve the “problems” with the original mix (which were HIS fault in the first place - after his original mix was rejected, he brought some kind of submix to Bowie to fix it instead of the multitracks, and Bowie only had a few hours to do anything with it. The Ashetons were 100% there on the multitracks, just listen to the outtakes from that deluxe set a few years ago).
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:21 pm
by lewdd
JGJR wrote:
lewdd wrote:probably several of the versions of LAMF
I'm really looking forward to hearing the RSD version that's about to be released next month because supposedly they found the real tapes and whatnot, but the only version I know is the '94 one ("The Lost '77 Mixes) from Jungle and it sounds pretty good to me, but I don't have an original to compare it to. Such a killer album.
I said it because there seem to be about a half dozen versions of that release that I am sure some of them should have never been released.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:26 pm
by version sound
I had the Lost ‘77 Mixes in the early ‘90s. It was pretty good, but I heard a rip of the original cassette with the original mix a few years ago (they fucked up the mastering of the vinyl, but not the cassette, apparently) and it was way better than the “lost mixes.”
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Unbelievable how many tapes are claimed to have existed of that album. This wiki article doesn't even mention the RSD release.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:44 pm
by JGJR
version sound wrote:
JGJR wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
No way (or did you mean the Iggy mix; the Bowie mix was every released version from '73 until the Iggy mix first came out in '97) You should listen to the version on the box set. It's the best I've ever heard it and I had the cassette and have the 2xLp version with the Iggy mix (which is incidentally incredible on that set; the '97 CD is a great entry for this category, though, because it's horrendous IMO).
Sorry, but the Iggy mix is garbage, and it has nothing to do with the digital distortion on the CD and everything to do with the heavy handedness and egocentricity of the mix. He just cranked up all the guitar and vocal tracks and left the bass and drums woefully underrepresented. You know how people have always complained that there wasn’t enough Iggy and James on the record? No? Goddamn right, because no one ever said that. Iggy’s mix did NOTHING to solve the “problems” with the original mix (which were HIS fault in the first place - after his original mix was rejected, he brought some kind of submix to Bowie to fix it instead of the multitracks, and Bowie only had a few hours to do anything with it. The Ashetons were 100% there on the multitracks, just listen to the outtakes from that deluxe set a few years ago).
If you've never heard the 2012 double Lp version, you'll be VERY surprised. If that doesn't convince you, nothing will. That said, since I grew up on the Bowie mix, it's still, by and large, my preferred method of listening to Raw Power, specifically the version on that box set. It's just stunning.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:45 pm
by JGJR
version sound wrote:I had the Lost ‘77 Mixes in the early ‘90s. It was pretty good, but I heard a rip of the original cassette with the original mix a few years ago (they fucked up the mastering of the vinyl, but not the cassette, apparently) and it was way better than the “lost mixes.”
I just hope they use the same source for the RSD one and master it well.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:30 pm
by version sound
JGJR wrote:If you've never heard the 2012 double Lp version, you'll be VERY surprised. If that doesn't convince you, nothing will. That said, since I grew up on the Bowie mix, it's still, by and large, my preferred method of listening to Raw Power, specifically the version on that box set. It's just stunning.
The Bowie mix IS Raw Power. Even if he had remixed it properly (which he didn’t, because he’s an egomaniac), it would only make it more pedestrian. This is what a balanced, traditional mix of RP sessions material sounds like:
Compared to the magic that Bowie created with the limited resources that Iggy handed him, that’s just downright boring. I love the Ashetons and wish that they were better represented on the Bowie mix (again, their absence is Iggy’s fault), but I would never trade the Raw Power we got for one that sounded like every other 70s hard rock record. Iggy made the worst of both worlds by taking away Bowie’s drama and dynamics while leaving the Ashetons barely audible. He should really be ashamed.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:33 pm
by xxxMidgexxx
version sound wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:Bowie Mix of 'Raw Power'...?
HOW GODDAMN DARE YOU! I just called the USPS and asked them to get that box of cassettes back.
Sorry duders, but as much as I am a fan of Bowie's music, his mixing sucks on this. Though he didn't have a lot of good 'sounding' tracks to work with. Great album, yes, but remixing and re-mastering this album won't help. It is what it is in the annals of rock and roll.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:30 pm
by SamDBL
JGJR wrote:
lewdd wrote:probably several of the versions of LAMF
I'm really looking forward to hearing the RSD version that's about to be released next month because supposedly they found the real tapes and whatnot, but the only version I know is the '94 one ("The Lost '77 Mixes) from Jungle and it sounds pretty good to me, but I don't have an original to compare it to. Such a killer album.
What you mean by ‘real tapes’. Like, the mix that the band preferred at the time? I’ve always thought it was both a horrible loss and totally fitting that the master tapes of this were lost and some fucked up mix ended up getting released. I think it’s just about the best punk rock record ever released.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:44 am
by JGJR
SamDBL wrote:
JGJR wrote:
lewdd wrote:probably several of the versions of LAMF
I'm really looking forward to hearing the RSD version that's about to be released next month because supposedly they found the real tapes and whatnot, but the only version I know is the '94 one ("The Lost '77 Mixes) from Jungle and it sounds pretty good to me, but I don't have an original to compare it to. Such a killer album.
What you mean by ‘real tapes’. Like, the mix that the band preferred at the time? I’ve always thought it was both a horrible loss and totally fitting that the master tapes of this were lost and some fucked up mix ended up getting released. I think it’s just about the best punk rock record ever released.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:44 pm
by patient_ot
I've never been a huge Thunders/Heartbreakers fan, but that does sound interesting. I would like to hear the O.G. mix if the tape still sounds good. Strange how the "correct tape" oddly made it to a cassette and certain EU pressings. I'm not playing the RSD game though, I'll wait for a wider release which will surely happen with something like this.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:54 pm
by patient_ot
Re: Raw Power, it's a very flawed record to begin with. There isn't any perfect version.
I heard the Iggy Mix first, and regardless of what you think of his mixing choices, it's the mastering, not the mixing that makes it sound like absolute shit.
It's so compressed that everything is pushed into digital clipping. At the time it was one of the loudest CDs you could buy, besides some Japanese noise stuff.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:57 pm
by jaybird
I picked up that 'Mats Pleased to Meet Me outtakes and alternates LP on RSD... a lot of stinkers on there... The version of CHW, Paul mumbles and stumbles his way through the lyrics, the band is on autopilot, the whole thing just sounds like a shitty demo. But I'm still the dipshit who dropped like $30.00 on it.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:58 pm
by version sound
Iggy’s RP is trash for BOTH the mixing and mastering.
As for LAMF, supposedly, the problem was the mastering, not the mix. The cassette and LP were the same tape and mix. The vinyl mastering was botched.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:00 pm
by lewdd
I was bored this afternoon so I created a spreadsheet with the song name from each release of LAMF and the session the recording came from where the info was available. Interesting that only six other songs have come out on other releases after the original release.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:00 pm
by lewdd
jaybird wrote:I picked up that 'Mats Pleased to Meet Me outtakes and alternates LP on RSD... a lot of stinkers on there... The version of CHW, Paul mumbles and stumbles his way through the lyrics, the band is on autopilot, the whole thing just sounds like a shitty demo. But I'm still the dipshit who dropped like $30.00 on it.
I bought that too but solely because I wanted "Beer for Breakfast" on vinyl.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:30 pm
by patient_ot
version sound wrote:Iggy’s RP is trash for BOTH the mixing and mastering.
As for LAMF, supposedly, the problem was the mastering, not the mix. The cassette and LP were the same tape and mix. The vinyl mastering was botched.
Hmm, so what was the muddiness from then? Was the lacquer cutting engineer drunk that day? Did he just apply shit EQ? Or was there some kind of wacky noise reduction or something?
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:08 pm
by lewdd
patient_ot wrote:
version sound wrote:Iggy’s RP is trash for BOTH the mixing and mastering.
As for LAMF, supposedly, the problem was the mastering, not the mix. The cassette and LP were the same tape and mix. The vinyl mastering was botched.
Hmm, so what was the muddiness from then? Was the lacquer cutting engineer drunk that day? Did he just apply shit EQ? Or was there some kind of wacky noise reduction or something?
Wiki doesn't say why
I just listened to flac versions I had downloaded that were probably from a CD version of that Track Records release and I think they sound pretty decent especially for something recorded in 1977.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:54 pm
by xxxMidgexxx
ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:57 pm
by lewdd
whatever happened to that podcast greg used to have about the replacemats
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:26 pm
by SamDBL
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
It is *insane* how much they keep repackaging those god damned albums. And this is coming from one of their biggest fans. Fuck, I think the Beatles have less versions of their recordings available.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:19 pm
by version sound
patient_ot wrote:
version sound wrote:Iggy’s RP is trash for BOTH the mixing and mastering.
As for LAMF, supposedly, the problem was the mastering, not the mix. The cassette and LP were the same tape and mix. The vinyl mastering was botched.
Hmm, so what was the muddiness from then? Was the lacquer cutting engineer drunk that day? Did he just apply shit EQ? Or was there some kind of wacky noise reduction or something?
No idea, that’s just what I’ve read over the years. The cassette that came out at the same time as the vinyl doesn’t have the issues that the vinyl supposedly has, which lends credence to the idea to me. Same mix, I would imagine it’s from the same master. I’ve never heard the OG vinyl, so I can’t comment firsthand, but this is a rip of the cassette, and it sounds fine to me:
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:36 pm
by lewdd
It sounds faster and with the mid range and lower treble range mixed higher. If that RSD release on vinyl sounds like this, I will be buying a copy.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:51 am
by patient_ot
So here's one for you. Warner is issuing a new Sabbath Sabotage deluxe set. Some of the concert material on it is actually sourced from lossy/mp3 audio. If they couldn't get a good source for that stuff, they should've left it out.
It's getting to the point where some of these releases are just scraping the barrel again and again and quality is not a concern at all.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:37 am
by drew
SamDBL wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
It is *insane* how much they keep repackaging those god damned albums. And this is coming from one of their biggest fans. Fuck, I think the Beatles have less versions of their recordings available.
The Mats are brilliant. They released “dead mans pop” based on an album even most of their fans don’t like(I do) and it sold. I can’t wait to see everyone fall over themselves for the 10lp “sorry ma” remixes.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:52 am
by gregpolard
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
Who hurt you? You know if it was a band you were super into you'd be all over anything of the sort. haha
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:24 am
by lewdd
gregpolard wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
Who hurt you? You know if it was a band you were super into you'd be all over anything of the sort. haha
Did I hear someone say Marillion?
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:33 am
by gregpolard
lewdd wrote:
gregpolard wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
Who hurt you? You know if it was a band you were super into you'd be all over anything of the sort. haha
Did I hear someone say Marillion?
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:06 pm
by JGJR
drew wrote:
SamDBL wrote:
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
ENOUGH
It is *insane* how much they keep repackaging those god damned albums. And this is coming from one of their biggest fans. Fuck, I think the Beatles have less versions of their recordings available.
The Mats are brilliant. They released “dead mans pop” based on an album even most of their fans don’t like(I do) and it sold. I can’t wait to see everyone fall over themselves for the 10lp “sorry ma” remixes.
Exactly this. I prefer the alternate version of DTAS on there to the originally released/more well known one (and I love that album). I understand fans' hesitance at labels reissuing, repackaging, reevaluating, etc. but the reality is that as long as there is money to be made, Rhino/WB/whoever will continue to put these things out. It's that simple, really.
P.S. I'd totally buy a differently mixed or even rawer version of Sorry Ma. I can see it now. Trash Rescued - the unreleased tapes.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:33 pm
by Markonomicon
Savage Young Du.
It sucks.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:29 am
by Knutsen
Markonomicon wrote:Savage Young Du.
It sucks.
It is a nice packaging with the book. However I only bought the box for the vinyl of the 2nd set of the Land Speed Record show, which I love.
Re: Vault Releases That Should Have Stayed in the Vault
Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:55 am
by FormerLurker
xxxMidgexxx wrote:ENOUGH with the fucking Replacements 're-issues' already, OK?? 10th.. 20th... 30th.. bonus tracks...remastered...(SAME SHIT)
Live cuts (that SUCK)
Re-packaging....Whatever 100000 GM vinyl...redux
WE GET IT...WE GET IT.... MILK THE FANS! Every few years based on whatever album is ready for an anniversary.
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:14 pm
