gregpolard wrote:Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.
SamDBL wrote:gregpolard wrote:Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.
This is a separate point from what I’m saying in this thread, though. I’m saying I think that if it is of the variety in which the music is solely on a computer program from samples that it is simply something different than music made from playing musical instruments. I do not buy the argument that the computer has become an instrument. Just as I don’t buy that a person playing a sports video game, no matter how talented, is the same as an actual athlete. There is a legitimacy deficit, there. Modern age rap should just have some separate designation other than ‘music genre’, which implies that a musical instrument (and therefore the discipline of learning to play an instrument) is part of the equation. I think ‘audio collage’ or ‘virtual music’ both have a nice ring to them. I mean, I’d just as soon call it rhinoceros diarrhea. But I’m willing to work with you guys a little.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:SamDBL wrote:gregpolard wrote:Also, given by what I post about on here and other social media outlets....it's pretty clear I don't listen to much rap at all. But I also don't think that it requires no talent, and there is rap that I like so I won't write off the genre.
This is a separate point from what I’m saying in this thread, though. I’m saying I think that if it is of the variety in which the music is solely on a computer program from samples that it is simply something different than music made from playing musical instruments. I do not buy the argument that the computer has become an instrument. Just as I don’t buy that a person playing a sports video game, no matter how talented, is the same as an actual athlete. There is a legitimacy deficit, there. Modern age rap should just have some separate designation other than ‘music genre’, which implies that a musical instrument (and therefore the discipline of learning to play an instrument) is part of the equation. I think ‘audio collage’ or ‘virtual music’ both have a nice ring to them. I mean, I’d just as soon call it rhinoceros diarrhea. But I’m willing to work with you guys a little.
SamDBL wrote:‘Xactly.
kel wrote:I dislike the genre.
Probably just for the sake of debate, I would, however, posit that "musicianship" and "instruments" are -like most art- flexible terms.
If someone chooses to use drum machines, samples, industrial noises, and such as their "instruments", making a piece of art out of existing art that is different (note I didn't say "greater than") than the whole/original... then I guess that's their thing. There's obviously some technical skills required in programming percussion devices. It may lean even more past skills and towards "talent" if someone can get machinery making modern music and still be open hearted.
A drum circle of people banging on paint buckets doesn't have much in the way of instruments, but it can be quite evolved.
That said, the sadly prolific themes of an awful lot of rap (constant braggadocio, foul-mouthed sexist and racist lyrics, glorification of crime, etc.) turns me off even if I *did* like the 4/4 beats of an Roland 808 machine set to loop.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:jaybird wrote:Three nebbish-y Jews made the greatest hip-hop album of all time.
I will say this. As much as I do not like rap at all, THAT is a decent album. But its' because it draws from a diverse variety of musical genres and moods. It muddies up the term 'rap' and that's the only way I could like it. There's some jazz crossing over...and the writing is bizarre.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.
SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.
Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?
jaybird wrote:I will say I am kinda fascinated with this whole trend of idiots with tattoos on their faces mumbling over generic loops and beats... I mean, I agree a lot of punk and metal and otherwise "extreme" music has no shortage of endlessly-mockable clichés and so forth.... but this sort of shit is basically the essence of hip-hop crawling up its own asshole forever... doesn't even have any hot twerking black chicks to make the video worthwhile, just a crew of dipshits waving guns and wads of singles around... I'm amazed one of these clowns hasn't blown their dick off during one of these video shoots:
SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.
Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.
Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?
a) I didn't say that was the norm
b) You could see how from your original statement, one would have no idea if you were familiar with those groups given "I'm sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments..." , right?
I'm not a particularly big Cypress Hill fan, but I thought they were really good the one time I saw them in the '90s. My favorite rap/hip-hop album ever is (cue old guy answer) It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. I didn't really hear any rap I liked until that album blew me away in 1990. It was like hearing a hard rock or punk record (I was already deep into the former and just starting to get deep into the latter by that point), but they were just using other elements (MC, DJ, Bomb Squad production, primitive samplers, etc.) to achieve it. I know you probably hate that, too, but just saying.
SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:It is a generalization. I’m sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments. But that the rare exception in the genre.
Nonsense. I've seen Cypress Hill play with so-called "real" instruments and if you don't know who The Pharcyde and The Roots (both are hip-hop bands) are, I'd give them a chance. The Roots have backed Jay-Z on his Unplugged album and tons of other people over the years, they did a record with Elvis Costello in 2013, etc. and I could go on.
Of course I know Pharcyde/Roots/Cypress Hill. I hate every single one of them, just as a matter of preference. There are a couple of Roots songs I like, but they are not at all hip hop songs (that Family song that was on Yo Gabba Gabba is pretty good). But total bullshit if you think rattling off these bands playing actual instruments somehow makes it the norm in modern rap music. They are, as I clearly said, the exception. And as such, I would give them a higher standing from 90% of their peers in terms of legitimate music. However, I still think they fucking suck. Cypress Hill? Are you kidding me?
a) I didn't say that was the norm
b) You could see how from your original statement, one would have no idea if you were familiar with those groups given "I'm sure there are rap bands that play actual instruments..." , right?
I'm not a particularly big Cypress Hill fan, but I thought they were really good the one time I saw them in the '90s. My favorite rap/hip-hop album ever is (cue old guy answer) It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. I didn't really hear any rap I liked until that album blew me away in 1990. It was like hearing a hard rock or punk record (I was already deep into the former and just starting to get deep into the latter by that point), but they were just using other elements (MC, DJ, Bomb Squad production, primitive samplers, etc.) to achieve it. I know you probably hate that, too, but just saying.
A) Well then pointing it that some bands exist that break this stereotype is meaningless. Since my whole statement is a generalization against the genre, not the relatively few bands that defy the stereotype. "Bands that don't play instruments are lesser than bands that do"... "What about these bands that play instruments, though?"... I
B) I'm not sure how you'd get from "I'm sure there are some rap bands that play actual instruments" to "I have never heard these super popular rap bands that were played on the radio and in clubs every 5 minutes", but ok. In any case...
Yeah, I don't like that shit, either. But it's just my personal taste. I'm making a distinction between that, and worth a shit artistic music that requires some sort of skill to make. FWIW, most of the stuff you are mentioning is kind of old. I'd venture to say that a fair bit of it was still being recorded with analog technology. Which escapes my criticism, as I mentioned at the beginning of all of this. Music manufactured solely through modern digital means requires orders of magnitude less skill than even the most intermediate level band consisting of actual instruments. Definitive. Binding. Case closed. Gavel slammed.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
SamDBL wrote:Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.
It's the truth, something I know you don't particularly want to deal with or care about if it suits your biases. Hammer and Vanilla Ice? GTFOOH. Those are your examples? During the same era, PE, De La Soul, Tribe, Beasties, NWA, Gang Starr, et al. were all making golden age-era classics. My argument about hipness was exactly the opposite. Please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't trying to insult you, just saying how you come off.
But if you want to go there, with the full disclosure that you are a professional musician and I am not, I see no difference and view it all as an instrument. I've never tried to compose something using either a guitar or digital tools, so I am not the correct person to ask about this topic. I just think that the value of these things is purely subjective and personal; I don't believe there's a right and a wrong here. This is different from my personal preferences, of course.
SamDBL wrote:JGJR wrote:SamDBL wrote:Again, the ‘you just sound like an old dude, maaaaaan. Get with it!’ Comeback is so fucking tired and silly. Guess what, I also didn’t like mc hammer and vanilla ice when I was young and on the cutting edge of contemporary music listening. What fucking difference does that make? Are you really trying to appeal to my sense of wanting to be hip in order to anchor your argument?
Anyway, for the 80th time, just because I don’t personally like something does not automatically make it garbage. What I’m saying, that no one really wants to address, is that there is a fundamental difference between music made by a computer program and without any instruments, and music made with musical Instruments. The infinite retort of ‘just because you don’t like it...’ makes absolutely no sense in relation to the point I’m making. I’m used to this board dodging super obvious points with non-sequitors and straw men when it comes to political discourse. But I can’t believe it carries over into hip hop discussions, too.
It's the truth, something I know you don't particularly want to deal with or care about if it suits your biases. Hammer and Vanilla Ice? GTFOOH. Those are your examples? During the same era, PE, De La Soul, Tribe, Beasties, NWA, Gang Starr, et al. were all making golden age-era classics. My argument about hipness was exactly the opposite. Please re-read what I wrote. I wasn't trying to insult you, just saying how you come off.
But if you want to go there, with the full disclosure that you are a professional musician and I am not, I see no difference and view it all as an instrument. I've never tried to compose something using either a guitar or digital tools, so I am not the correct person to ask about this topic. I just think that the value of these things is purely subjective and personal; I don't believe there's a right and a wrong here. This is different from my personal preferences, of course.
I was being facetious in citing MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice. Yes, I know the supposed 'greats' of the era... NWA, TCQ, etc... It didn't appeal to me then, or now. I don't take it as an insult, I just think it's a weak come back. I see it *constantly* on other boards as well... the gear page I post on is full of 45+ rock fans talking about how Van Halen blows away Greta Van Fleet and John Mayer.. and other 45+ year olds sniping them for being too old and out of touch. It just doesn't make any sense. If you are defending something, defend it. 'If it's too loud, yer too old!' is not a defense.
Me not liking rap = purely subjective. Pointing out a difference between music made with real instruments and music made with samples on a computer = objective. FWIW, I don't even hate all electronic music. I like plenty of weird synth stuff... tangerine dream and throbbing gristle come to mind. I don't happen to like the end result of rap production, is all. BUT I still think the case is totally solid that DAW made music is a different thing *in some way* than music made on traditional instruments. We can debate what exactly that difference is and what it means in the grand scheme. But yeah, it's a different discipline.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
JGJR wrote:I'd rather talk about the unassailable fact that VH is about 100,000 better than Greta Van Fleet. Those folks just must not have functioning ears whatever age they are. And John Mayer? Really? WTF? I don't even understand how he even factors in that discussion. He doesn't play hard rock.
Incidentally, I had a discussion the other day about VH with a fellow fan (a bigger one than myself, admittedly, but we are both fans) and he thinks that when their fanbase dies off, they won't be popular like other bands of that era like AC/DC who have transcended it and have a younger/multi-generational audience. I'm not sure if he's right. What do you think? Judging by that message board interaction, he may be on to something.
patient_ot wrote:I genuinely thought that at some point the whole hair metal/cock rock thing would die out completely and it kinda did for awhile. But then I see younger folks that weren't around for that scene posting records by Motley Crue and Ratt and Dokken on social media and I know I was wrong. I basically grew up hearing a lot of that music along with stereotypical classic rock radio. For a long time I didn't want to listen to it anymore but will play those albums occasionally when the mood strikes.
I couldn't even name one song by GVF or Mayer. The stuff I heard by GVF sucked to me, too much bland revival hard rock. I'd rather just listen to the real thing, again, when the mood strikes.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
SamDBL wrote:Also: KISS. Similarly went through shit era that people scoff at. That still packin me in based on the legacy of their strongest period. I think that’s analogous to the Hagar VH years.
xxxMidgexxx wrote:But perhaps I just love drone stuff in general.
jaybird wrote:So... the AstroWorld disaster...
Obviously crowd crushes and human stampedes resulting in death and injury have occurred at all sorts of events with huge attendance... rock concerts, soccer games, even religious festivals like the Haj in Mecca etc... but honestly, imagine suffocating to death while some auto-tuned dipshit blares on at deafening volume and this is the last thing you see as you drift into the abyss:
Gotta admit, pretty badass visual... i bet Glenn wishes he had thought of something similar for the Misfits lightshow for "20 Eyes"
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